๐คReddit r/MachineLearningโขStalecollected in 2h
Why Is Muon Only for Transformers?
๐กDecode why LLM optimizer Muon skips ConvNets despite speed records
โก 30-Second TL;DR
What Changed
Rapid adoption of Muon specifically in LLM training workflows
Why It Matters
Highlights potential limitations of promising optimizers, guiding researchers to explore broader applications or alternatives.
What To Do Next
Search Arxiv for 'Muon ConvNet' papers to investigate scalability claims.
Who should care:Researchers & Academics
๐ง Deep Insight
AI-generated analysis for this event.
๐ Enhanced Key Takeaways
- โขMuon (Momentum-Unnormalized Optimizer) relies on a second-order approximation that performs a singular value decomposition (SVD) on weight updates, which is computationally expensive and memory-intensive for non-Transformer architectures.
- โขThe optimizer's effectiveness is tightly coupled with the specific weight-tying and parameter-sharing properties of Transformer layers, which do not translate directly to the hierarchical, spatial-feature-focused structure of Convolutional Neural Networks.
- โขRecent research suggests that Muon's performance gains are highly sensitive to the specific learning rate schedules and batch sizes used in LLM pre-training, making it difficult to tune for the diverse training dynamics of vision models.
๐ Competitor Analysisโธ Show
| Optimizer | Primary Use Case | Key Mechanism | Scalability |
|---|---|---|---|
| AdamW | General Purpose | First/Second Moment Estimation | High |
| Muon | Transformers | SVD-based Update Preconditioning | Moderate |
| Lion | LLMs/Vision | Sign-based Update | High |
| Sophia | LLMs | Second-order Hessian Approximation | Moderate |
๐ ๏ธ Technical Deep Dive
- โขMuon performs a momentum-based update followed by a projection step that enforces orthogonality on the weight update matrix.
- โขThe core operation involves computing the SVD of the momentum matrix M, specifically M = UฮฃVแต, and replacing it with U Vแต to ensure the update is a rotation/reflection.
- โขIt requires significantly more memory than AdamW due to the need to store and compute SVDs for large weight matrices, limiting its application to architectures where weight matrices are large enough to justify the overhead.
- โขThe optimizer is typically applied only to the dense layers of Transformers, as the SVD operation is not well-defined or efficient for the smaller, heterogeneous kernels found in ConvNets.
๐ฎ Future ImplicationsAI analysis grounded in cited sources
Muon will remain niche to Transformer-based architectures.
The fundamental reliance on SVD for weight updates creates a computational bottleneck that is incompatible with the layer structures of non-Transformer models.
Future iterations will focus on approximate SVD methods to reduce memory overhead.
To expand beyond Transformers, developers must find ways to approximate the orthogonal projection without the full cost of SVD.
โณ Timeline
2024-10
Muon optimizer introduced by researchers at KAN (Kolmogorov-Arnold Networks) related projects.
2024-12
Initial benchmarks demonstrate Muon outperforming AdamW in training efficiency for large-scale Transformer models.
2025-05
Community reports highlight Muon's difficulty in converging on non-Transformer architectures like ResNet or ConvNeXt.
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Original source: Reddit r/MachineLearning โ